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Transcript après la coupure / English translation after the cut
Planète Hollywood
Cahiers Du Cinéma :
Maps To The Stars est une charge très violente.
C'est un adieu à Hollywood.
David Cronenberg :
Je ne vois pas le film seulement comme un film sur Hollywood. C'est
un film sur l'ambition, la célébrité, l'immortalité, l'argent. Ca
pourrait être Le Loup De Wall
Street, ça pourrait se situer dans le monde de la finance
ou dans l'industrie automobile à Detroit. Le film parle de toute
industrie puissante qui fabrique des images et des produits. Et des
stars qui en naissent. Pour moi ce n'est pas vraiment un film
anti-Hollywood. Je sais, c'est étrange à dire mais c'est moins une
histoire sur Hollywood que sur la part sombre d'Hollywood. D'ailleurs
s'il n'y avait pas ce scénario de Bruce Wagner, je n'aurais pas fait
un film sur le cinéma. Beaucoup de cinéastes, souvent plus jeunes,
aiment faire des films sur les films. Je ne vois aucun intérêt à
faire ce type de film autoréférencé. C'est comme les écrivains
qui écrivent sur le fait d'écrire, ça ne m'intéresse pas. Mais je
trouvais le script, les personnages, les dialogues fantastiques. Donc
c'est de la faute de Bruce (rires) !
Hollywood, plus
largement, est une métaphore de notre époque.
Absolument. C'est l'autre
raison pour laquelle ce n'est pas vraiment une attaque contre
Hollywood. Le film traite de notre obsession, pas seulement de la
célébrité, mais de nous-mêmes. Le scénario a été écrit avant
Facebook. Maintenant, tout le monde est une star sur Facebook. Tout
le monde se prend en photo en train de manger. Sur Instagram, les
gens imitent la vie des célébrités. Est-ce que c'est bien ou mal ?
Je ne sais pas. En tout cas ce n'est pas très productif. Et en un
sens c'est malsain, ce ne crée que de l'illusion. Et Hollywood bien
sûr est la grande version, iconique, de ça. Parce que nous sommes
encore hantés par James Dean, Marilyn Monroe et Humphrey Bogart. Les
gens pensent encore à ces icônes et ils essaient de les faire
revenir à la vie avec les nouvelles technologies. Il y a chez tous
un désir d'immortalité. Le film plus profondément parle de la peur
de la mort et de l'angoisse existentielle : si Havana ne reçoit
pas un coup de fil de son agent, si elle ne fait plus de films, elle
cesse d'exister. Elle est désespérée. Ce n'est pas juste de
l'ambition, c'est la peur d'être anéantie. Je crois que si le
spectateur comprend ça, il ne verra pas juste un film sur Hollywood
mais un film qui parle des désirs et des traumas universels
aujourd'hui.
On sent la mort
partout dans le film. Spécialement la mort des enfants :
Hollywood est comme construit sur les cadavres d'enfants.
Pas seulement sur les
cadavres d'enfants. Je vois Hollywood comme une planète très dense,
avec une immense champ de gravité. Les gens viennent du monde
entier, ils sont attirés dans l'orbite, et une fois qu'ils sont là
ils ne peuvent pas échapper à la gravité d'Hollywood. Ils sont
coincés. On connaît beaucoup de réalisateurs dont la carrière
meurt à Hollywood et beaucoup de gens meurent à Hollywood. Il n'y
pas une année sans que quelqu'un meure d'une overdose ou d'un
accident de voiture. C'est une forme de suicide. La mort de Philip
Seymour Hoffman n'est peut-être pas techniquement un suicide, mais
en un sens oui, c'est un suicide. Il y a quelque chose de corrosif et
de funeste à Hollywood.
Maps To The Stars
est comme un anti-Mulholland Drive ; dans
le film de David Lynch, même si Los Angeles devient un cauchemar, la
ville reste le lieu du rêve. L'héroïne arrive par avion, la ville
est une promesse ; votre héroïne arrive plus trivialement en
bus au milieu de plein de passagers.
Tous les jours des gens
arrivent en bus à Los Angeles ; pour eux, il n'y a pas de
glamour. Et pourtant tout le paradoxe est que ce n'est pas du tout
comme arriver à Chicago, parce que le monde du cinéma est toujours
là. J'ai appris en faisant le film que beaucoup de gens ne voulaient
plus vivre à Los Angeles : John Cusack par exemple vit à
Chicago. Parce qu'à Los Angeles, on ne peut pas échapper au monde
du cinéma. Même si on va laver sa voiture. Tout le monde a
plusieurs métiers, tout le monde fait ou veut faire du cinéma.
Bruce Wagner est très précis parce qu'il vit à Los Angeles depuis
longtemps, et son père était dans le monde du cinéma. Il ne cesse
de le répéter : le scénario n'est pas une satire, tout est
vrai. Il a entendu chaque ligne de dialogue. Ce n'est pas une
exagération ou une caricature. Quand je parlais à mes acteurs, je
leur demandais de ne pas exagérer, de ne pas jouer de manière
excessive, je voulais que l'interaction entre les personnages soit
réelle, à un niveau humain, ordinaire. Je leur disais que les
situations parleraient d'elles-mêmes, qu'il ne fallait rien
accentuer, que ce serait plus puissant si c'était réel.
Julianne Moore est
impressionnante dans son rôle très audacieux. Qu'a-t-elle apporté
au personnage ?
Elle non plus ne peut pas
vivre à Los Angeles, elle vit à New York. Elle a dans les 50 ans,
et elle connaît beaucoup d'actrices qui ont disparu à cet âge-là.
Elle est magnifique et elle continue à travailler, mais c'est une
exception. Le monde du cinéma est très brutal. Elle a pu baser son
personnage sur des actrices qu'elle connaît, des actrices qui ont eu
'leur moment' pendant trois-quatre ans, et qui ont disparu parce que
leur manque de talent apparaissait ou parce qu'elles vieillissaient
mal. On retrouve un trauma existentiel : je suis une actrice,
mais je ne peux plus jouer. Qui suis-je ? Est-ce que j'existe
encore ?
Le film est effrayant
sur l'âge. Il y a cette discussion dans une fête entre des
enfants-stars qui traitent les actrices de 25 ans de 'ménopausées'.
C'est comme ça. Ils
n'ont aucun sens de leur propre âge, ils ne savent pas qu'ils
vieilliront aussi et qu'ils sont mortels. Ils sont cruels parce
qu'ils ont peur. La peur en fait des monstres. Ces enfants n'ont
aucune philosophie, ils n'ont personne pour leur apprendre quoi que
ce soit, parce que leurs parents sont comme Havana ou la mère de
Benjie, ils poussent leur carrière et vivent une vie de célébrité
à travers leurs enfants. Les parents deviennent des monstres et les
enfants n'apprennent rien d'autre qu'à devenir des monstres à leur
tour. Ils sont attrapés par la gravité de la planète.
Evan Bird, l'acteur de
13 ans, est formidable. Avait-il une connaissance de ce milieu des
enfants-stars ?
Non, pas du tout. Quand
je l'ai choisi il avait même 12 ans. Il est canadien, j'étais
content de le trouver parce que c'est un rôle difficile. Je l'avais
vu dans la série The Killing. C'est un enfant très
intelligent.
Le film est
particulièrement cru et trivial, beaucoup de scènes se passent dans
une salle de bains ou dans les toilettes.
Oui, c'est un point
intéressant. C'est là où la réalité de votre corps humain
existe. J'ai lu que les Nord-Coréens croyaient que Kim II-sung, le
premier dictateur de la Corée du Nord, n'allait jamais aux
toilettes, comme Bouddha. Ils pensaient à lui comme à un adieu ...
Un enfant en tue un
autre près d'un urinoir, ça va très loin … En même temps la
beauté du film est qu'il est fait 'pour' les enfants, pour sauver
les enfants. Le personnage interprété par Mia Wasikowska est plus
âgé mais se comporte comme une enfant. Elle rassemble les
enfants.
Oui le personnage principal est le plus doux, le plus naïf, le plus pur, même si elle est folle. Elle n'est pas là pour devenir une star mais pour résoudre une trauma familial. Le personnage de Jerome, joué par Robert Pattinson, est aussi un enfant. Il n'est pas né à Los Angeles, il vient de l'Indiana ou d'ailleurs, il croit qu'il est capable de jouer le jeu. C'est pathétique, il va être détruit, comme un enfant. Il est trop vulnérable. Il joue au dur mais il ne l'est pas. A la fin les enfants sont sont détruits par les monstres. C'est le nouveau sens que prend le poème Liberté, qui a été écrit par Paul Eluard au moment de la Résistance. Ici, la liberté devient la mort.
Oui le personnage principal est le plus doux, le plus naïf, le plus pur, même si elle est folle. Elle n'est pas là pour devenir une star mais pour résoudre une trauma familial. Le personnage de Jerome, joué par Robert Pattinson, est aussi un enfant. Il n'est pas né à Los Angeles, il vient de l'Indiana ou d'ailleurs, il croit qu'il est capable de jouer le jeu. C'est pathétique, il va être détruit, comme un enfant. Il est trop vulnérable. Il joue au dur mais il ne l'est pas. A la fin les enfants sont sont détruits par les monstres. C'est le nouveau sens que prend le poème Liberté, qui a été écrit par Paul Eluard au moment de la Résistance. Ici, la liberté devient la mort.
Vous avez travaillé
pendant toutes ces années avec Bruce Wagner sur le scénario ?
A-t-il beaucoup évolué ?
On a travaillé ensemble
pendant des années. Le scénario a dû être actualisé jusqu'à la
dernière minute parce que lorsqu'on a commencé à y travailler,
Facebook, les smartphones, Twitter n'existaient pas. Et Bruce aime
utiliser des références contemporaines. J'ai parlé la première
fois du rôle à Julianne Moore il y a huit ans, donc on a dû revoir
aussi le script en fonction de l'âge. Et puis j'ai fait un
changement aussi concernant les fantômes. Je ne crois pas aux
fantômes, et je n'en ai jamais filmé. Mais Bruce, lui, dit qu'il y
croit. Il y avait des scènes avec des enfants morts dans les rues la
nuit. Des scènes très puissantes. Mais je me demandais : dans
quel esprit sont ces fantômes ? C'était un autre type de
fantôme. Pour moi seuls les fantômes de la mémoire sont légitimes.
On peut être hanté par des morts, que ce soit des parents ou des
célébrités. Mais qu'il y ait de vrais fantômes, ça ne je ne peux
pas l'accepter, donc j'ai supprimé ces scènes. Sauf celles où le
personnage se parle à lui-même.
Pour la mère morte,
quelle était la référence du film dans lequel elle a tourné ?
En voyant ces images en noir et blanc, on pense à David
And Lisa et à Lilith.
Bruce pensait au film
Lilith de Robert Rossen, que j'avais vu il y a longtemps. La
mère pourrait donc être Jean Seberg.
C'est une manière de
dire qu'Hollywood est un remake permanent.
Oui, ça nous amène au
thème de l'inceste. Dans la dynastie royale égyptienne, l'inceste
était la règle. Pour garder la pureté de la la lignée. Hollywood
est incestueux aussi. Il n'y pas de sang frais, pas de nouvelles
visions, on fait Spiderman 5 et X-Men 13 à l'infini.
Les films sont les produits de l'inceste : les produits
déformés, retardés, impotents, de l'inceste.
Les films sont devenus
les monstres ?
Non ce ne sont pas des monstres, ce sont des infirmes. C'est différent. Les films sont comme des enfants qui ont des terribles malformations génétiques. Leur structure génétique n'est pas correcte.
Non ce ne sont pas des monstres, ce sont des infirmes. C'est différent. Les films sont comme des enfants qui ont des terribles malformations génétiques. Leur structure génétique n'est pas correcte.
Quels contacts
avez-vous avec Hollywood ?
Je vis à Toronto, j'ai un agent à L.A., un manager à L.A., et un avocat à L.A. Et ils me tiennent au courant. Je connais les scripts qui circulent. J'ai eu des entrevues avec des gens de studios, qui sont les plus absurdes comédies que j'ai pu vivre. Ils sont encore plus ridicules que dans le film. J'en ai eu l'expérience lorsque je devais faire Basic Instinct 2, puis The Matarese Circle, d'après le roman d'espionnage de Robert Ludlum, avec Denzel Washington et Tom Cruise pour MGM. J'ai fait des rencontres très très bizarres à ce moment-là. Je ne peux pas vous en dire plus, je ne pouvais pas croire ce que j'entendais. J'avais le sentiment de parler à des acteurs jouant le rôle de studio executives !
Je vis à Toronto, j'ai un agent à L.A., un manager à L.A., et un avocat à L.A. Et ils me tiennent au courant. Je connais les scripts qui circulent. J'ai eu des entrevues avec des gens de studios, qui sont les plus absurdes comédies que j'ai pu vivre. Ils sont encore plus ridicules que dans le film. J'en ai eu l'expérience lorsque je devais faire Basic Instinct 2, puis The Matarese Circle, d'après le roman d'espionnage de Robert Ludlum, avec Denzel Washington et Tom Cruise pour MGM. J'ai fait des rencontres très très bizarres à ce moment-là. Je ne peux pas vous en dire plus, je ne pouvais pas croire ce que j'entendais. J'avais le sentiment de parler à des acteurs jouant le rôle de studio executives !
Pourquoi avez-vous eu
tant de mal à monter Maps To The Stars ?
Mes films sont des
coproductions Canada-Grande Bretagne, Canada-France ou
Canada-Allemagne. Je devais tourner au moins cinq jours à Los
Angeles. On ne pouvait pas recréer Hollywood à Toronto, il fallait
filmer sur place, c'est si particulier. On tournait vingt-quatre
jours à Toronto et cinq à L.A. L'un des problèmes était de
trouver une coproduction permettant de tourner aux Etats-Unis, donc
de dépenser de l'argent aux Etats-Unis plutôt que dans le pays
coproducteur. Et dans la plupart des coproductions, il n'est pas
permis d'avoir un co scénariste qui n'est pas du pays coproducteur …
Il y a aussi le problème des acteurs : nous n'avions droit qu'à
un seul acteur américain, et c'est John Cusack. Julianne Moore a un
passeport anglais, Mia Wasikowska est australienne avec un passeport
polonais, Robert Pattinson est anglais. On n'a pas réussi à monter
la coproduction il y a huit ans, il y a cinq ans non plus. Et c'est
la coproduction avec l'Allemagne qui a permis d'avoir un scénariste
américain. Et Saïd Ben Saïd nous a rejoint. Voilà la réalité
avec laquelle je dois composer en tant que réalisateur indépendant !
Vous avez aimé
tourner à Los Angeles ?
J'ai adoré. C'était
très cathartique. Quand j'ai tourné à Londres Les Promesses De
L'Ombre, j'ai filmé un Londres
secret, que personne ne reconnaît. Cette fois, je voulais filmer des
endroits iconiques : le panneau d'Hollywood, Hollywood
Boulevard, Chateau Marmont, Beverly Hills, même Rodeo Drive où les
stars font leurs emplettes. C'était excitant. C'est la première
fois aussi que je tournne aux Etats-Unis. A History Of
Violence était mon seul vrai
film de studio, entièrement financé par New Line. Je pouvais avoir
tous les acteurs américains que je voulais, mais le studio voulait
tourner au Canada, parce que c'était moins cher ! Ils ne m'ont
même pas laissé tourner dans leur propre pays.
Dans
Maps To The Stars,
on sent la lumière de Los Angeles. A la fin, sur la terrasse de
l'hôpital, le décor est très étrange, on sent les collines
derrière.
Vous
y avez cru ? Cette scène est en CG (computer
graphics) ! On a filmé les
collines et on les a placées derrière le décor à Toronto. Il n'y
avait rien autour. Je sais qu'à Los Angeles, on verrait les
collines, c'est pour ça que j'ai placé ce fond. On a fait la même
chose dans la scène où Mia découvre Rob sur le tournage, dans le
fond les collines d'Hollywood sont faites en CG. Quand on me demande
si j'aime le CG, je réponds oui : pas pour créer des monstres,
mais pour faire naître ce genre d'atmosphère, sans que personne ne
s'en aperçoive. C'est invisible mais cela vous aide à créer une
certaine réalité.
Et
pourquoi ne pas avoir créé intégralement une réalité étrange à
Toronto ?
Non
je ne pouvais pas : il n'y a pas assez de palmiers à Toronto !
Je répétais toujours en plaisantant : 'Quand
on va à Los Angeles, il faut au moins un palmier par plan (rires)
!'
Etait-ce
aussi une plaisanterie de filmer Robert Pattinson en chauffeur de
limousine, après Cosmopolis ?
Non. Bien sûr j'y ai
pensé, mais il adorait l'idée de faire partie d'un ensemble, de ne
pas être l'acteur principal. C'est donc un hasard … En fait dans
le film il est Bruce Wagner, car Bruce a été chauffeur de limousine
pendant des années, et le personnage principal de son premier roman,
Force Majeure, est un chauffeur de limousine. Mais pas grand
monde a vu Cosmopolis, donc personne n'y pensera. J'espère
qu'il y aura plus de monde pour voir Maps To The Stars
(rires) !
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Translation (Contain some spoilers)
Planet Hollywood
Cahiers Du Cinéma : Maps To The Stars is a very violent burden. This is a farewell to Hollywood.
David Cronenberg : I don't only see the movie as a movie about Hollywood. This a movie about ambition, fame, immortality, money. It could be The Wolf Of Wall Street, it might be in the world of business or in the automobile industry in Detroit. The movie is about any industry that produces powerful pictures or products. And stars that are born because of that. For me it's not really an Anti Hollywood movie. I know it's strange to say but this is less a story about Hollywood as the dark side of Hollywood. Besides if there were not this script of Bruce Wagner, I wouldn't have made a movie about cinema. Many filmmakers, often younger ones, like to make movies about movies. I have no interest in this type of self-referential movie. It's like writers who write about writing, it doesn't interest me. But I found that the script, the characters, the dialogues were amazing. So it's Bruce's fault (lauhgs)!
Hollywood is widely a metaphor for our times.
Absolutely. This is another reason why it's not really an attack against Hollywood. The movie talks with our obsession, not only the fame, but also of ourselves. The screenplay was written before Facebook. Now everybody is a star on Facebook. Everybody takes pictures while eating. On Instagram, people imitates the lives of celebrities. Is it good or bad? I don't know. In any case it's not very productive. And in a way it's unhealthy, it only creates the illusion. And Hollywood of course is the huge, iconic version of that. Because we're still haunted by James Dean, Marilyn Monroe and Humphrey Bogart. People still think about these icons and they try to bring them back to life with new technologies. There is in everybody a desire for immortality. The movie talks deeply about the fear of death and the existential dread : if Havana doesn't receive a call from her agent, if she doesn't make any movie, she ceases to exist. She is desperate. This isn't just ambition, it's the fear of being annihilated. I think that if the viewer understands that, he doesn't just see a movie about Hollywood but a movie about desires and universal traumas now.
We feel the death throughout the movie. Especially the death of children : Hollywood is like built on the bodies of children.
Not only on the bodies of children. I see Hollywood as a very dense planet, with a huge gravitational field. People come from all over the world, they are drawn into the orbit, and once they are there, they can't escape the gravity of Hollywood. They are stuck. We know many directors whose career died in Hollywood and many people die in Hollywood. There isn't a year without someone dies of an overdose or a car accident. It's a form of suicide. The death of Philip Seymour Hoffman isn't perhaps technically a suicide, but in a sense, yes it's a suicide. There is something corrosive and destructive in Hollywood.
Maps To The Stars is like an anti Mulholland Drive ; in David Lynch's movie, even though Los Angeles is a nightmare, the city is the location of dreams. The heroin arrives by plane, the city is a promise; your heroin comes in a mundane way by bus amid lots of passengers.
Every day people come by bus to Los Angeles; for them, there is no glamour. Yet the paradox is that it's not at all like arriving in Chicago, because the world of cinema is still there. I learned from making the movie that many people no longer wanted to live in Los Angeles: for example John Cusack lives in Chicago. Because in Los Angeles, you can't escape from the world of cinema. Even if you go wash your car. Everyone has several jobs, everyone is or wants to make movies. Bruce Wagner is very accurate because he lives in Los Angeles for a long time, and his father was in the world of cinema. He keeps repeating: the script isn't a satire, everything is true. He heard every line of the dialogue. It's not an exaggeration or a caricature. When I talked to my actors, I asked them not to exaggerate, not to play excessively, I wanted that the interaction between the characters is real, at a human level, ordinary. I told them that the situations speak for themselves, that they haven't to emphasize, that it would be more powerful if it was real.
Julianne Moore is impressive in her very daring part. What did she bring to the character ?
She neither can't live in Los Angeles, she lives in New York. She's in her fifties and she knows a lot of actresses who have disappeared in this age. She's beautiful and she continues to work, but this is an exception. The world of cinema is very brutal. She could base her character on actresses she knows, actresses who have had 'their time' during three or four years and which have disappeared because their lack of talent appeared or because they aged badly. We find an existential trauma : I'm an actress but I can't play anymore. Who am I? Do I still exist?
The movie is scary about the age. There's this discussion in a party between child stars who treat 25 years old actresses of 'post-menopausal women'.
It's like that. They have no sense of their own age, they don't know that they'll age and they are mortal. They're cruel because they're afraid. Fear makes monsters. These children have no philosophy, they have no one teaching them anything, because their parents are like Havana or Benjie's mother, they push their career and live a life of fame through their children. Parents become monsters and children learn nothing else but become monsters in their turn. They are caught by the gravity of the planet.
Evan Bird, the 13 years old actor, is great. Did he acknowledge this world of child stars ?
No, not at all. When I chose him, he was even 12 years. He is Canadian, I was happy to find him because it's a difficult part. I had seen him in the TV show The Killing. This is a very intelligent child.
The movie is particularly raw and trivial, many scenes take place in a bathroom or in the toilets.
Yes, that's an interesting point. This is where the reality of your human body exists. I read that North Korean people believed that Kim II-sung, the first dictator of North Korea, never went to the bathroom like Buddha. They thought of him as a farewell …
A child kills another near a urinal, it goes a long way … At the same time, the beauty of the movie is that it's 'for' children, to save the children. The character played by Mia Wasikowska is older but behaves like a child. She gathers children.
Yes the main character is the sweetest, most naive, the purest even she's crazy. She isn't here to become a star but to solve a family trauma. Jerome's character played by Robert Pattinson is also a child. He isn't born in Los Angeles, he comes from Indiana and elsewhere, he believes that he is able to play the game. It's pathetic, he'll be destroyed like a child. He's too vulnerable. He plays the badass people but he doesn't. At the end, the children are destroyed by monsters. This is the new direction taken by the poem Liberté which was written by Paul Eluard at the time of the Resistance. Here, freedom is death.
You've worked during all these years with Bruce Wagner on the script ? Did it evolve a lot?
We worked together for years. The script has been updated to the last minute because when we started working, Facebook, smartphones, Twitter didn't exist. And Bruce likes to use contemporary references. I first talked about the role to Julianne Moore eight years ago, so we had also to review the script based on age. And then I also made a change in ghosts. I don't believe in ghosts and I've never film them. But Bruce says that he believes in them. There were scenes of dead children in the streets at night. Very powerful scenes. But I was wondering : in which spirit are those ghosts? It was a different kind of ghost. For me only the ghosts of memory are legitimate. We can be haunted by the dead people, whether relatives or celebrities. But there are real ghosts, I can't accept it, so I removed these scenes. Except where the character talks to themselves.
For the dead mother, what was the reference film in which she shot? Seeing these images in black and white, we think about David And Lisa and Lilith.
Bruce thought about the movie Lilith by Robert Rossen that I had seen a long time ago. The mother could be Jean Seberg.
It's a way of saying that Hollywood is a permanent remake.
Yes, it brings us to the theme of incest. In the Egyptian royal dynasty, incest was the norm. To keep the purity of the lineage. Hollywood is also incestuous. There is no fresh blood, no new visions, we film Spiderman 5 and X-Men 13 to infinity. The movies are products of incest : deformed, retarded, disabled products of incest.
Did movies become monsters ?
No, they aren't monsters, they're disabled. It's different. Movies are like children who have terrible genetic defects. Their genetic structure isn't correct.
What kind of relation do you have with Hollywood ?
I live in Toronto, I have an agent in L.A. and a lawyer in L.A. and they keep me informed. I know the scripts that are circulating. I had meetings with people from studios, which are the most absurd comedies that I could live. They're even more ridiculous than in the movie. I have had experienced it when I had to do Basic Instinct 2, then The Matarese Circle based on Robert Ludlum's spying novel with Denzel Washington and Tom Cruise for MGM. I made very very odd encounters that time. I can't tell you more, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I felt talking to actors playing the role of studio executives!
Why did you have so much difficulties to make Maps To The Stars ?
My movies are canadian-UK, Canadian-French or Canadian-German coproductions. I had to shoot at least five days in Los Angeles. We couldn't recreate Hollywood in Toronto, we had to shoot there, it's so special. We shot twenty four days in Toronto and five in L.A. One of the problems was to find a coproduction allowing to shoot in the States, and therefore spending money in the United States rather than in the coproducing country. And in most coproductions, it's not possible to have a co writer which isn't from the coproduction country … There is also the problem of the actors : we were only allowed to have one American actor, and that's John Cusack. Julianne Moore has a British passport, Mia Wasikowska is Australian with a Polish passport, Robert Pattinson is English. We didn't manage to find a coproduction eight years ago or five years ago either. And this is the coproduction with Germany which allowed us to get an American screenwriter. And Saïd Ben Saïd joined us. Here is the reality with which I have to deal as an independent director !
Did you like to shoot in Los Angeles ?
I loved it. It was very cathartic. When I shot Eastern Promises in London, I shot a secret London that nobody recognizes. This time, I wanted to shoot iconic places: the Hollywood Sign, Hollywood Boulevard, Chateau Marmont, Beverly Hills, even Rodeo Drive where the stars do their shopping. It was exciting. It was the first time I shot in the United States. A History Of Violence was my only real movie studio, fully funded by New Line. I could have all the American actors that I wanted, but the studio wanted to shoot in Canada because it was cheaper! They didn't even let me shoot in their own country.
In Maps To The Stars, we can feel the light of Los Angeles. At the end, on the terrace of the hospital, the decor is very strange, we can feel the hills behind.
You believed it? This scene is a CGI one! We shot the hills and we put behind the scenes in Toronto. There was nothing around. I know that in Los Angeles, we would see the hills, that's why I put this background. We did the same the thing in the scene where Mia discovers Rob on set, the Hollywood hills in the background are made in CGI. When people ask me if I like CGI, I say yes: not to create monsters, but to give birth to this kind of atmosphere without anyone noticing it. It's invisible but it helps to create a certain reality.
And why did you not create a strange reality in Toronto ?
No I couldn't: there aren't enough palm trees in Toronto! I always kept saying jokingly: 'When we go to Los Angeles, we need at least one palm tree in each scene !'
Was it a joke to shoot Robert Pattinson as a limo driver after Cosmopolis?
No. Of course, I thought about it, but he loved the idea of being a part of an ensemble, not being the lead actor. So this is a chance … In fact, in the movie, he's Bruce Wagner, because Bruce was a limo driver for years, and the lead part in his first novel, Force Majeure, is a limo driver. But only a few people saw Cosmopolis, so nobody will think about it. I hope there will be more people going to see Maps To The Stars (laughs)!
Cahiers Du Cinéma : Maps To The Stars is a very violent burden. This is a farewell to Hollywood.
David Cronenberg : I don't only see the movie as a movie about Hollywood. This a movie about ambition, fame, immortality, money. It could be The Wolf Of Wall Street, it might be in the world of business or in the automobile industry in Detroit. The movie is about any industry that produces powerful pictures or products. And stars that are born because of that. For me it's not really an Anti Hollywood movie. I know it's strange to say but this is less a story about Hollywood as the dark side of Hollywood. Besides if there were not this script of Bruce Wagner, I wouldn't have made a movie about cinema. Many filmmakers, often younger ones, like to make movies about movies. I have no interest in this type of self-referential movie. It's like writers who write about writing, it doesn't interest me. But I found that the script, the characters, the dialogues were amazing. So it's Bruce's fault (lauhgs)!
Hollywood is widely a metaphor for our times.
Absolutely. This is another reason why it's not really an attack against Hollywood. The movie talks with our obsession, not only the fame, but also of ourselves. The screenplay was written before Facebook. Now everybody is a star on Facebook. Everybody takes pictures while eating. On Instagram, people imitates the lives of celebrities. Is it good or bad? I don't know. In any case it's not very productive. And in a way it's unhealthy, it only creates the illusion. And Hollywood of course is the huge, iconic version of that. Because we're still haunted by James Dean, Marilyn Monroe and Humphrey Bogart. People still think about these icons and they try to bring them back to life with new technologies. There is in everybody a desire for immortality. The movie talks deeply about the fear of death and the existential dread : if Havana doesn't receive a call from her agent, if she doesn't make any movie, she ceases to exist. She is desperate. This isn't just ambition, it's the fear of being annihilated. I think that if the viewer understands that, he doesn't just see a movie about Hollywood but a movie about desires and universal traumas now.
We feel the death throughout the movie. Especially the death of children : Hollywood is like built on the bodies of children.
Not only on the bodies of children. I see Hollywood as a very dense planet, with a huge gravitational field. People come from all over the world, they are drawn into the orbit, and once they are there, they can't escape the gravity of Hollywood. They are stuck. We know many directors whose career died in Hollywood and many people die in Hollywood. There isn't a year without someone dies of an overdose or a car accident. It's a form of suicide. The death of Philip Seymour Hoffman isn't perhaps technically a suicide, but in a sense, yes it's a suicide. There is something corrosive and destructive in Hollywood.
Maps To The Stars is like an anti Mulholland Drive ; in David Lynch's movie, even though Los Angeles is a nightmare, the city is the location of dreams. The heroin arrives by plane, the city is a promise; your heroin comes in a mundane way by bus amid lots of passengers.
Every day people come by bus to Los Angeles; for them, there is no glamour. Yet the paradox is that it's not at all like arriving in Chicago, because the world of cinema is still there. I learned from making the movie that many people no longer wanted to live in Los Angeles: for example John Cusack lives in Chicago. Because in Los Angeles, you can't escape from the world of cinema. Even if you go wash your car. Everyone has several jobs, everyone is or wants to make movies. Bruce Wagner is very accurate because he lives in Los Angeles for a long time, and his father was in the world of cinema. He keeps repeating: the script isn't a satire, everything is true. He heard every line of the dialogue. It's not an exaggeration or a caricature. When I talked to my actors, I asked them not to exaggerate, not to play excessively, I wanted that the interaction between the characters is real, at a human level, ordinary. I told them that the situations speak for themselves, that they haven't to emphasize, that it would be more powerful if it was real.
Julianne Moore is impressive in her very daring part. What did she bring to the character ?
She neither can't live in Los Angeles, she lives in New York. She's in her fifties and she knows a lot of actresses who have disappeared in this age. She's beautiful and she continues to work, but this is an exception. The world of cinema is very brutal. She could base her character on actresses she knows, actresses who have had 'their time' during three or four years and which have disappeared because their lack of talent appeared or because they aged badly. We find an existential trauma : I'm an actress but I can't play anymore. Who am I? Do I still exist?
The movie is scary about the age. There's this discussion in a party between child stars who treat 25 years old actresses of 'post-menopausal women'.
It's like that. They have no sense of their own age, they don't know that they'll age and they are mortal. They're cruel because they're afraid. Fear makes monsters. These children have no philosophy, they have no one teaching them anything, because their parents are like Havana or Benjie's mother, they push their career and live a life of fame through their children. Parents become monsters and children learn nothing else but become monsters in their turn. They are caught by the gravity of the planet.
Evan Bird, the 13 years old actor, is great. Did he acknowledge this world of child stars ?
No, not at all. When I chose him, he was even 12 years. He is Canadian, I was happy to find him because it's a difficult part. I had seen him in the TV show The Killing. This is a very intelligent child.
The movie is particularly raw and trivial, many scenes take place in a bathroom or in the toilets.
Yes, that's an interesting point. This is where the reality of your human body exists. I read that North Korean people believed that Kim II-sung, the first dictator of North Korea, never went to the bathroom like Buddha. They thought of him as a farewell …
A child kills another near a urinal, it goes a long way … At the same time, the beauty of the movie is that it's 'for' children, to save the children. The character played by Mia Wasikowska is older but behaves like a child. She gathers children.
Yes the main character is the sweetest, most naive, the purest even she's crazy. She isn't here to become a star but to solve a family trauma. Jerome's character played by Robert Pattinson is also a child. He isn't born in Los Angeles, he comes from Indiana and elsewhere, he believes that he is able to play the game. It's pathetic, he'll be destroyed like a child. He's too vulnerable. He plays the badass people but he doesn't. At the end, the children are destroyed by monsters. This is the new direction taken by the poem Liberté which was written by Paul Eluard at the time of the Resistance. Here, freedom is death.
You've worked during all these years with Bruce Wagner on the script ? Did it evolve a lot?
We worked together for years. The script has been updated to the last minute because when we started working, Facebook, smartphones, Twitter didn't exist. And Bruce likes to use contemporary references. I first talked about the role to Julianne Moore eight years ago, so we had also to review the script based on age. And then I also made a change in ghosts. I don't believe in ghosts and I've never film them. But Bruce says that he believes in them. There were scenes of dead children in the streets at night. Very powerful scenes. But I was wondering : in which spirit are those ghosts? It was a different kind of ghost. For me only the ghosts of memory are legitimate. We can be haunted by the dead people, whether relatives or celebrities. But there are real ghosts, I can't accept it, so I removed these scenes. Except where the character talks to themselves.
For the dead mother, what was the reference film in which she shot? Seeing these images in black and white, we think about David And Lisa and Lilith.
Bruce thought about the movie Lilith by Robert Rossen that I had seen a long time ago. The mother could be Jean Seberg.
It's a way of saying that Hollywood is a permanent remake.
Yes, it brings us to the theme of incest. In the Egyptian royal dynasty, incest was the norm. To keep the purity of the lineage. Hollywood is also incestuous. There is no fresh blood, no new visions, we film Spiderman 5 and X-Men 13 to infinity. The movies are products of incest : deformed, retarded, disabled products of incest.
Did movies become monsters ?
No, they aren't monsters, they're disabled. It's different. Movies are like children who have terrible genetic defects. Their genetic structure isn't correct.
What kind of relation do you have with Hollywood ?
I live in Toronto, I have an agent in L.A. and a lawyer in L.A. and they keep me informed. I know the scripts that are circulating. I had meetings with people from studios, which are the most absurd comedies that I could live. They're even more ridiculous than in the movie. I have had experienced it when I had to do Basic Instinct 2, then The Matarese Circle based on Robert Ludlum's spying novel with Denzel Washington and Tom Cruise for MGM. I made very very odd encounters that time. I can't tell you more, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I felt talking to actors playing the role of studio executives!
Why did you have so much difficulties to make Maps To The Stars ?
My movies are canadian-UK, Canadian-French or Canadian-German coproductions. I had to shoot at least five days in Los Angeles. We couldn't recreate Hollywood in Toronto, we had to shoot there, it's so special. We shot twenty four days in Toronto and five in L.A. One of the problems was to find a coproduction allowing to shoot in the States, and therefore spending money in the United States rather than in the coproducing country. And in most coproductions, it's not possible to have a co writer which isn't from the coproduction country … There is also the problem of the actors : we were only allowed to have one American actor, and that's John Cusack. Julianne Moore has a British passport, Mia Wasikowska is Australian with a Polish passport, Robert Pattinson is English. We didn't manage to find a coproduction eight years ago or five years ago either. And this is the coproduction with Germany which allowed us to get an American screenwriter. And Saïd Ben Saïd joined us. Here is the reality with which I have to deal as an independent director !
Did you like to shoot in Los Angeles ?
I loved it. It was very cathartic. When I shot Eastern Promises in London, I shot a secret London that nobody recognizes. This time, I wanted to shoot iconic places: the Hollywood Sign, Hollywood Boulevard, Chateau Marmont, Beverly Hills, even Rodeo Drive where the stars do their shopping. It was exciting. It was the first time I shot in the United States. A History Of Violence was my only real movie studio, fully funded by New Line. I could have all the American actors that I wanted, but the studio wanted to shoot in Canada because it was cheaper! They didn't even let me shoot in their own country.
In Maps To The Stars, we can feel the light of Los Angeles. At the end, on the terrace of the hospital, the decor is very strange, we can feel the hills behind.
You believed it? This scene is a CGI one! We shot the hills and we put behind the scenes in Toronto. There was nothing around. I know that in Los Angeles, we would see the hills, that's why I put this background. We did the same the thing in the scene where Mia discovers Rob on set, the Hollywood hills in the background are made in CGI. When people ask me if I like CGI, I say yes: not to create monsters, but to give birth to this kind of atmosphere without anyone noticing it. It's invisible but it helps to create a certain reality.
And why did you not create a strange reality in Toronto ?
No I couldn't: there aren't enough palm trees in Toronto! I always kept saying jokingly: 'When we go to Los Angeles, we need at least one palm tree in each scene !'
Was it a joke to shoot Robert Pattinson as a limo driver after Cosmopolis?
No. Of course, I thought about it, but he loved the idea of being a part of an ensemble, not being the lead actor. So this is a chance … In fact, in the movie, he's Bruce Wagner, because Bruce was a limo driver for years, and the lead part in his first novel, Force Majeure, is a limo driver. But only a few people saw Cosmopolis, so nobody will think about it. I hope there will be more people going to see Maps To The Stars (laughs)!
Translation
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